Chuck Baldwin – What About Israel?
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Is America an exceptional nation or an exemptional nation? Is Israel today the same Israel it was during Biblical times? You’re about to learn some extraordinary principles to help you understand and interpret international events.
On our show, we interview Dr. Chuck Baldwin. Dr. Baldwin is a radio broadcaster, syndicated columnist, and pastor dedicated to preserving the historic principles upon which America was founded. He also ran for president in 2008.
We talk about his recently released series on The Church and Israel.
33 Comments
Mike
Wow; this is all news to me. I have always thought that Israel was our friend and ally and that Benjamin Netanyahu was a good guy. No offense Dr. Baldwin but I will need more than just your word on the subject to change my opinion. If you are preaching politics from the pulpit, does that mean you have forfeited your 501c charitable contribution tax status? I did vote for you in 2008 and voted for Darrell last year so I do believe in the Constitution Party. Just not sure about this whole Israel thing.
Bob Peck
I think this is a classic example of one of those topics where the Christian-conservative-right assumes we know the correct point of view and policy because we’ve heard ourselves repeat the mantra so many times that it must be true. However, have we stopped to consider why we believe what we believe and how it lines up with scripture? I too had assumed that whatever the modern state of Israel does must be tantamount to the will of God because “they’re his people” and “God established Israel.” However, I assumed those things because that’s what all the other Christians have been saying all my lifetime.
I actually listened to Chuck’s full series on The Church and Israel – about nine and a half hours in all. I spent a couple weeks studying through it and compiled 15 pages of notes. The teaching was primarily about just how much so the old covenant has been done away with and replaced with the new under which there is no benefit to being a Jew because all need a savior equally and that savior is Jesus Christ – all are equally saved by him or equally lost without him. There was also a lot of teaching about Israel’s rejection of their messiah and the correct application of Mathew 24 to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
I tried to keep an open mind while studying through Chuck’s teaching – open to both points of view that is. I have to say that since studying that series, a whole lot of New Testament, prophesy, Pharisees, Israel and related things have been fitting into place for me and making more since as I read the gospels and ponder these matters.
I want to add, for any who might read this, that this is not about being antisemitic, but simply about the fact that since their rejection of their messiah, and the advent of the new covenant in Christ, that there’s no special benefit to being a “Jew” or to calling your country “Israel.” I don’t think Chuck, or I, are saying that we should be anti-Israel, just that there’s no sound reason to be mindlessly pro-Israel. Rather, we should treat the modern state of Israel the same as any other government – work with them when they do right and call them out when they do wrong.
Darby McMahan
Instead of reading and studying Chuck’s version of Israel and the Jews try reading what Paul said in the New Testament and what the Apostle John wrote about the Jews in the book of Revelation. Yes the Jews did suffer greatly for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. But according to the Old Testament prophets one day they will see Jesus and they will accept Him in the last days. By the way according to the Bible, in the last days the church grows sleepy and a great number of Christians will miss the coming of the Lord. Who will be judged more harshly….Jews who only had the Old Testament and missed Jesus….or the Christians who had the Whole Bible…and are worldly, lazy and spiritually dead in most cases in our got to have entertainment churches to have a crowd.
Ken Holloway
Amen. When one bases their theology on an extraBiblical (not in the Bible) covenant, that’s a dangerous starting place. Let’s stick with the Biblical covenants and rightly divide the Word. Biblically the church and Israel are always kept separate.
Tess
We Christians are the ELECT. THE ISRAEL OF GOD.
Matthew 2:6
Micah 5:2
God divorced Israel in Jeremiah and Amos
Amos 9:8
“I will UTTERLY DESTROY ISRAEL , but will SAVE A REMNANT OF JACOB
ROMANS 11:5
The REMNANT OF JACOB WERE THE CHRISTIAN DISCIPLES
EZEKIEL 47:22
Israel was NEVER A RACE. It was exactly the same as Christianity. ALLL WERE WELCOME TO BECOME ISRAELITES IN BOTH TESTAMENTS.
”
The word “Jew” didnt exist before the 1600’s
These Jews have JUDIAZED THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. They are the enemies if the Church of Christ.
The Jews have Christians praying to foreign gods. And godesses. In the BOOK OF EXODUS God warns us to NEVER LET THE NAMES OF FOREIGN GODS PASS THRU OUR LIPS.
It RABBINIC LAW to say AMEN after prayers.
AMEN is the ancient EGYPTIAN GOD of creation
HALLELU-JAH means ” LUCIFER IS GOD. Look up Lucifer in a bible concordance. Jah means “a god” HEYLELE is Lucifer.
HEYLELE-JAH
SHEKINAH, the godess of the Talmud/Kabbalah who is to bring forth the Jewish Anti Christ who is to KILL ALL OF US and hand over earth to Jews.
In corrupt Christian Zionist. churches , SHEKINAH is being passed off as the HOLY SPIRIT.
THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT IS MALE! Not female.
=•=•=•=•=•=•=•=•
JERUSALEM- the Home of Devils and vile spirits
BOOK OF REVELATION
11:8
the GREAT CITY where our LORD WAS CRUCIFIED. (Jerusalem)
17:1 & 17:18
the NWO global gov ran by THE WHORE OF BABYLON
18:10
The GREAT CITY IS BABYLON
(Jerusalem)
18:1-3
BABYLON is become the HOME OF DEVILS AND VILE SPIRITS
18:23
Pharmikia/sorcery =’s THE POISONERS. (Bible concordance)They control the ROCKERFELLER Industrial Medical Complex. Their CIA has been caught trafficking drugs into America to POISON .US (Mena, Arkansas, Bill Clinton)
18:24
They spilled the blood of Prophets, Saints, AND ALL WHO WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.
If you study, ALL WARS HAVE BEEN JEWISH WARS. Ive studied from the French Revolution to today. The bible is true. All wars have been Jewish wars . The Jews hiding behind different titles.
France ……Jacobites
Spain ………Sabbatean .Frankists
Armenia ……Young Turks, donmeh Jews pretending to be Islamic converts. CHRISTIAN WOMEN CRUCIFIED NAKED ON CROSSES.
RUSSIA-USSR -Bolsheviks. All Christians GENOCIDE, churches bulldozed down as happened in France
UKRAINE-entire nation starved to death in the HOLOMODORE GENOCIDE. A Holocaust hidden from history books
GERMANY- a HOLOCAUST OF GERMANS done by ALLIED NATIONS ALL RAN BY JEWS DURING WW2.
See Jew Theodore Kauffmans conspiracy to destroy the German Race called “GERMANY MUST PERISH” And it did in the FIREBOMBING OF GERMANY . The HOLOCAUST OF GERMANS. This firebombing was ALSO THE CAUSE OF JEWS STARVING IN CAMPS when FOOD AND MEDICINE LINES WERE DESTROYED. The Jewish Holocaust is a fable. ( Book of Titus 1:13-16) HOLOCAUST MEANS BURNT OFFERING. (the god of Talmudisn is Lucifer. SEE TEXE MARRS video or book at Power of Prophecy “THE HOLY SERPENT OF THE JEWS”…. see also book or video by Michael Hoffman “JUDAISMS STRANGE GODS”
=•=•=•=•=•=•=•=•
SCRIPTURE NOT ALLOWED TO BE TAUGHT IN IRS 501-C3 Jewish controlled churches. The creation of Zionist Jew President Lyndon Johnson.
THE RESSURECTION OF ANCIENT ISRAEL INCLUDING THE 144,000 from the Tribes of Israel
John 5:25
Matthew 27:53
EZEKIEL Valley of Dry Bones
I Corinthians 15:20
Revelation 14:4
The Christian Church has been infiltrsted and corrupted with many lies thru the SCOFIELD BIBLE FOOT NOTES.
A bible funded by King of the Jews, and creator of Fake nation of Israel …and the corrupt SCOFIELD BIBLE… Rothschild.
=•=•=•=•=•=•=•==•
JEWS HAVE GOTTEN CHRISTIANS TO MAKE WAR AGAINST other CHRISTIANS AND GENOCIDE THEM.
This must give LUCIFER GREAT JOY!!!
=•=•=•=•=•=•=•=••
CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAEL OF GOD OF THE NEW COVENANT
Matthew 2:6
Micah 5:2
THIS IS WHY JEWS HAVE BEEN GENOCIDING CHRISTIANS FOR the past 2,000 + years .
Tess
Every nation Talmudic Jews have infiltrated , have been genocide by Jewish leaders.
The BOOK OF ESTHER is the blueprint warning us about Jewish infiltration.
Fein persecution
Marry into the powerful families
Lie about those that expose them. Today they use media to destroy the reputation of loyal patriots.
Then comes the genocide of that nation.
The BOOK OF ESTHER IS NOT AN OFFICIAL BOOK OF THE BIBLE. It must have been placed in the bible to protect Gods Elect from being genocide by the most SKILLED LIARS ON THE PLANET.
God even had a verse entered into the Bible to warn us about these liars.
BOOK OF TITUS
1:13-16
PAY NO ATTENTION TO “JEWISH FABLES” (holocaust) THEY SU THEY KNOW GOD BUT DO NOT. TO ALL GOOD WORKS…. THEY ARE REPROBATES.
Reprobate means REJECTED BY GOD.
The BEN FRANKLIN PROPHECY also accurately exposes That Jews BUILD A GOV WITHIN A GOV.
They have done this in America.
CIA
ADL & SPLC Behind censoring Pro American Nationslist voices who expose Jewish Hedgmony in America.
DHS
NUMEROUS NGO’s perpetrating MASS IMMIGRATION
EPA to destroy or industry and shipped it ovret seas at the leadership of JEW KISSINGER leading US MANUFACTURING TO CHINA.
MANY NGO ALPHABET AGENCIES WORKING TO DESTROY AMERICA.
NGO’s like the ILLEGAL FEDERAL RESERVE are illegal because they are NOT CONSTITUTIONAL. AND AVOID THE “FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT” designed to give ALL AMERICANS the right to request info in order to keep the US GOV HONEST.
Th
THEY ARE IN THE CHINESE GOV USING CHINESE NAMES WEARING CHINESE MILITARY UNIFORMS.
They WILL GENOCIDE US if they get a chance as they have done to Christian nations, one after another for over 2,000 years.
Tess
THE MARK. OF THE BEAST
Use a bible Concordance and look up for head and frontlets everywhere it’s used in the Bible.
you will find that MARK represents religion
NOW LOOK UP Right Hand everywhere used in the Bible.
You will find that the mark in the right hand represent your alliances.
2 JOHN 1:7-11 for bid any alliance with the Jews as they are anti-Christ because they preach a different gospel of Christ.
The Babylon Talmud Claims Christ was stoned when in truth he was crucified on a tree as the Scriptures prophesied. They call Jesus a bastard the son of a Roman soldier named Pantera. They call JESUS a magician. And say that the Jews put Jesus in HELL in a boiling VAT OF HUMAN EXCREMENT.
The Jewish religion teaches that Mary was a whore for the Roman soldiers instead of a virgin as a Scriptures say.
This is a different gospel of Christ therefore the Jewish religion and its followers are anti-Christ.
Judaism is an anti-Christ religion and the bible forbids Christians to associate with anti-Christs as they preach ANOTHER GODPEL OF CHRIST, thus making thrm ANTI CHRISTS.
Judaism is antichrist and the bible forbid Christians to associate with antichrists.
CHRISTIAN ZIONISM IS FALSE RELIGION. The GREAT FALLING AWAY from GODS BIBLE TRUTH we were warned about in 2 Thess 2.
2 John 1:7-11 FORBIDS CHRISTISN ZIONISM.
Due to this union with the Jews satanic Talmudic religion America has been used just as Jews used Rome to murder and genocide innocent Christian nations for them.
And to help them ROB THE RESOURCES OF OTHER NATIONS
They ARE. THE GLOBAL GOV. The bible is very clear bon this.
Revelation
11:8
17:1 & 17:18
18:20
Jerusalem is Babylon!
In the Scriptures Jesus said that the father shall no longer be worshiped in Jerusalem.
Fake Israel is not the holy land.
In 70 A.D. GOD DESTROYED JERUSALEM , had geneologies burned up, NO STONE WAS LEFT UNTURNED.
Today’s Jerusalem was rebuilt by the Romans.
The JEWS WAILING WALL is a FAKE!
That wall is left over from Fort Antonia built by the Romans dedicated to the Roman goddess Antonia.
Titus 1:13-16
The. Jews and their many lies.
In order to interpret the Bible in both testament the Holy Spirit must be present.
A Jewish rabbi cannot interpret the Bible accurately because he does not possess the Holy Spirit which only resides in Christians alone.
There is only one chosen people of God and that is Christians as tall in the book of Matthew 2:6 and in the book of Micah 5:2.
The book of Amos 9:8 Tells us that God destroyed old testament Israel and saved a remnant of Jacob which were the disciples as told in the book of Romans 11:5.
george
You need to study the Word of God
Marcy
Israel has always been a friend of America this guy Chuck Baldwin I read his bio he sounds like he’s kind of a lunatic you should really research out this guy to see who he really is
Don Hawkes
Dr. Ron Paul once stated ,”In an empire of lies , truth tellers are traitors.
Anyone who advocates for the restoration of our long lost Constitutional Republic will be viewed by the “Progressives” (Marxists) controlling both major political parties in the USA as treasonous and regressive.
A careful study of Scripture , one in which an academically meritorious interpretive method is used, will reveal the unbiblical nature of Dispensational Premillenialism referred to as Christian Zionism by Dr. Baldwin.
Don Hawkes
Liberty Fellowship , Kallispel Montana is not a 501c3 organization and they will assist churches desiring to unincorporate .
Pastor Baldwin has created a series of sermons contained is three sets , marketed as the Israel packages.
They are quite convincing and well worth the price but most of the messages may be accessed for free on YouTube . I highly recommend them .
I am attempting to work through these as fast as I can. The Israel packages may be obtained from Liberty Fellowship, Kalispell , Montana . The following is from the LF website .
The Israel Package-Set Two – 8 DVDs Containing 8 Messages – Featuring “The Destruction of Jerusalem” – By Pastor Chuck Baldwin – HUGE DISCOUNT
Nothing in Church history has deceived more Christians than the advent of the Zionist State of Israel in 1948.
Through the propaganda notes contained in C.I. Scofield’s Reference Bible and the explosion of Israel-based dispensational prophecy doctrines popularized by seminaries and Christian colleges such as Dallas Theological Seminary, Liberty University, etc., and by authors and TV preachers such as Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, etc., and by a majority of churches across the land, a brand new false doctrine has been created called “Christian Zionism.”
Suffice it to say that Rothschild’s Israel completely dominates both pulpits and politics in America today. To Christian Zionists, Bible prophecy is totally dependent upon the Zionist State of Israel. Furthermore, it is no hyperbole to say that Zionist Israel is at the very heart and soul of the entire faith system within Christian Zionist churches, colleges and organizations.
This package of 8 messages–along with The Israel Package-Set One–serve as the foundation for understanding the Biblical truth regarding Israel. Before one can understand where Israel fits into Bible prophecy, he or she must understand the basic Scriptural truths regarding Israel. That is what this package does: it presents the foundational Biblical truths regarding the subject of Israel.
This series is a MUST-WATCH!
The messages are packaged in chronological order as Pastor Baldwin delivered them, and they come in a very attractive hard plastic case. Viewers are urged to watch the series in chronological order–first Set One, then Set Two–as each message builds on the one before it.
The Israel Package-Set Two contains 8 DVDs, with 8 total messages.
These messages are:
The Three Great Deceptions Of Church History
Christian, Your Allegiance Is To Christ, Not Faux Israel!
The Old Covenant Has been Abolished, And We Are Under A New, Better And Everlasting Covenant
Judaizers Are Attacking Your Faith: Hold Fast!
Mount Zion, The Heavenly Jerusalem
“The Jews Require A Sign”
The Destruction Of Jerusalem
The destruction of Jerusalem is one of the most significant events in world history. The destruction of Jerusalem is also one of the most-prophesied events in Holy Scripture. Scores of prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments point to the destruction of Jerusalem. Sadly, these prophecies are almost universally ignored by modern clerics–or totally misapplied.
Tragically, the vast majority of Christians know next to nothing of the destruction of Jerusalem. The great truths that God taught through this seismic event are all but lost to today’s Christians. The lack of knowledge and understanding about the destruction of Jerusalem is a sign of the great “falling away” that has taken place in the Church over the past one hundred years.
This message expounds and explains not only the facts dealing with Jerusalem’s destruction but also the great lesson and meaning that Jerusalem’s destruction teaches the Church.
Pastor Baldwin has said that this might be the most powerful message God has ever given him to preach in over 44 years of ministry.
Plus, the conclusion of this message is one of the most surprising and thrilling climaxes to a message you will ever hear. You will probably never hear another message like this one in your entire lifetime.
This one message, by itself, has already been used of God to not only challenge the thinking of many people rooted in Christian Zionism, but to actually change their minds. This is the ONE message to give to as many friends as you can. We don’t know of another single message that has more power of God upon it to bring Christians to an understanding of the Biblical truth regarding Israel.
The Israel Package–Set One and Set Two–are the prerequisites to understanding the truth about where Israel fits into Bible prophecy.
BONUS MESSAGE:
The Talmud, Chabadism And Noahide Laws
This message discusses how Israel’s newly-formed Chabadist Sanhedrin is proposing a new global organization, centered in Jerusalem, called “The Organization Of 70 Nations,” which is designed to take the place of the United Nations. And this Chabadist Sanhedrin is working overtime to create the global acceptance of Talmudic Noahide laws.
Most Christians are totally unaware of just how deeply Chabadists have penetrated the U.S. government–along with many foreign governments–with Talmudic Noahide laws.
Christians also seem enamored with the Chabadists’ goal of building a third Jewish temple, complete with animal sacrifices. In fact, many Christians are actually supporting this effort, apparently oblivious to the sacrilege of it .
Talmudism and Noahide laws pose a MUCH GREATER threat to the Church (and to our country) than Islam and Sharia Law. Watch this message, and you will understand why.
Lewis
PRAISE THE LORD, BROTHER CHUCK!
Donna M. Medori-George
Thank you Pastor Chuck. You’ve given so much of yourself to pass on the truths that you’ve spent years uncovering. Thanks be to God, it’s in His Word, you have dug deep and overcome the wretched Scofield Bible Commentaries, and their ilk. You’ve published copies of great books. I encourage readers here to purchase. They’ll be a great start to a truth library. May God continue to bless you and yours. Amen
Gary
I couldn’t disagree more with Chuck Baldwin’s replacement theology.
Genesis 27:26-29 reveals the continuation of the Abrahamic blessing and cursing from Isaac to his son Jacob. Abram wasn’t a Hebrew, but Abraham is the Father of the Jewish nation. He’s their senior Patriarch. His grandson, Jacob, wrestled with God as recorded in Genesis 32:24-26 and in verse 28 God changed his name to Israel.
Remember the story of Balaam son of Beor? Numbers 24:1 begins with “Since Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel…” Read down through verse 9 where it says: “He crouches, he lies down like a lion or a lioness – who dares to rouse him? Those who bless you will be blessed, and those who curse you will be cursed.” Balak tried his best to get Balaam to curse Israel. In verse 13 of Numbers 24 Balaam decries: “…I could not go against the Lord’s command.”
According to the Apostle, Paul in his letter to the Romans, chapter 4:15 states “Brothers, I’m using a human illustration.[m] No one sets aside or makes additions to even a human covenant[n] that has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say “and to seeds,” as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed,[o] who is Christ. 17 And I say this: The law, which came 430 years later, does not revoke a covenant that was previously ratified by God[p] and cancel the promise.”
I urge all your readers to take a close look at the entire chapter of Romans 11, and then consider these questions:
Are Jews, Jews, and is Israel, Israel in the New Testament? Do They Still Have a Covenant with God?
ABSOLUTELY. THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ON THIS.
1) The Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4).
2) To Israel still belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises (Rom. 9:4).
3) The gifts and calling of God for Israel are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).
4) There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, “the Church,” where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” If you put “the Church” where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul’s prayer be for the Church to be saved?
5) Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God’s promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3.
6) Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God’s promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night.
7) The end-time prophecies, which speak of the return of the House of Jacob to their land (Israel) and its restoration, have overwhelmingly been fulfilled in Israel and the Jewish people in the past 120 years. (See, Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 37:1-14; Eze. 36; Eze. 35:1, Isa. 43:5,6; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 60:9-11; Isa. 49:22-23, etc.).
8) The Gospel and Yeshua came “to the Jews first, then the Greek” (Rom. 2:9,10; Matt:10:5-7;15:24). There is a distinction in roles between the two. Galatians 3:28 says: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This is speaking of everyone’s standing before God as equals, because we are all sinners saved by God’s grace and the atoning work on the Cross. Nevertheless, our roles here on earth are definitely distinct; e.g., men and women, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, etc. all have distinct roles to play. Likewise, Jews and Gentiles have distinct roles to play.
What is the Role of the Church?
1) “On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included. 2) The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as “grafted in” (Rom. 11:17); “brought near” (Eph 2:13); “Abraham’s offspring” (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); “heirs” to Abraham’s promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and “partakers” (Rom 15:27).
3) To the world, the Church is called to preach the Gospel to all nations and make disciples (Matt. 28:19-20); to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Mk. 12:30-31).
4) To the Jewish people, we are called to show God’s love “for the sake of the Patriarchs” (Rom. 11:28), for without them we would not have had God’s Word or our Savior who was a Jew from Israel. We are to show God’s mercy (Rom. 11:31). We are to give our material gifts to help them (Rom. 15:27). We are to pray for them and for Israel (Ps. 122:6). We are to be watchman on the walls to protect them (Isa. 62:6,7). We are to help with the aliyah (immigration) to Israel and the building up of Zion (Isa. 60:9-11; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 49:22-23).
5) According to Romans 11, we are two distinct groups, both grafted into the same tree, which are the covenants and promises given to Israel; grounded in the same root, the Messiah; drinking of the same sap, God’s Holy Spirit. We do not hold up the tree, but the tree us, and we are forbidden from boasting against or being arrogant to God’s covenant people the Jews (Rom. 11:17-18).
What Happens When the Church Replaces Israel?
1) The Church becomes arrogant and self-centred.
2) It boasts against the Jews and Israel.
3) It devalues the role of Israel or has no role for Israel at all.
4) These attitudes result in anti-Semitism in word and deed.
5) Without a place for Israel and the Jewish people today, you cannot explain the Bible prophecies, especially the very specific ones being fulfilled in Israel today.
6) Many New Testament passages do not make sense when the Jewish people are replaced by the Church.
7) You can lose the significance of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, for today. Many Christians boast of being a New Testament (NT) Christian or a NT Church as in the Book of Acts. However, the Bible of the early Church was not the New Testament, which did not get codified until the 4th century, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures.
8) You can lose the Hebraic/Judaic contextualization of the New Testament, which teaches us more about Yeshua and how to become better disciples.
9) The Church loses out on the opportunity to participate in God’s plan and prophecy for the Church, Israel and the world today.
What Happens When the Church Relates to Israel?
1) The Church takes its proper role in God’s redemptive plan for the world, appreciating God’s ongoing covenant relationship and love for Israel and the Jewish people.
2) We can see the consistency of God’s redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation as an ongoing complementary process, not as disconnected snapshots.
3) We show love and honor for God’s covenant people, not contempt.
4) We value the Old and New Testaments as equally inspired and significant for the Church today.
5) Bible prophecy makes sense for today and offers opportunities for involvement in God’s plan for Israel.
6) We become better disciples of Yeshua as we are able to appreciate the Hebraic/Judaic roots that fill in the definitions, concepts, words and events in the New Testament that are otherwise obscured. Why? Many were not explained by the Jewish writers of the New Testament, because they did not feel the need to fill in all the details that were already explained in the Old Testament.
Bob Peck
Gary – I appreciate your passion for this topic and your research of related scripture passages. I’ve saved your post to a folder I’m building on the topic because I’ve been doing some study on this matter and hope to do more in the future.
I’ve listened to a seven part series (over 9 hours) of Chuck Baldwin’s teaching on this topic and I want to say that Chuck’s views are not exactly what you, or others who oppose supersessionism (aka “replacement theology”), ascribe to that theological point of view.
The biggest point of controversy that I’m seeing is that supersessionists are said to be claiming that the old testament promises made to Abraham and Israel have been done away with and will never be fulfilled except in and through the church in some “spiritual” sense. Some supersessionists may believe that, though it appears not all do, or perhaps what we are dealing with is another theology that lies somewhere between your views and replacement theology.
There’s no way I can sum up 9 hours of teaching and my 15 pages of notes in a single comment – nor do I want to – but what I got from Chuck’s teaching with regard to this main point of controversy was that he believes the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, and to “the Son of David” with regard to ruling on the throne of Israel, apply to Jesus Christ and will not be realized until Christ’s return and Israel’s acknowledgment and acceptance of him as their messiah and king. I do see a pattern in Israel’s history in the Bible that sets a precedent for this.
Throughout the old testament, whenever Israel (first as a people group under the judges and later as a nation under the kings) disobeyed God, or departed from His commandments, they fell under judgment, were overrun by their enemies and oppressed. God never delivered them, gave them victory, or reestablished them until they first repented and returned to Him and obeyed the instructions delivered to them in the law of Moses and heeded the messages delivered through the prophets. After a long cycle of this, the situation got so bad that the just judgment was for Israel to permanently lose the kingdom and be carried away into captivity in Babylon.
Now I’m sort of reading between the lines, paraphrasing what Chuck taught, plus adding my own insights here, but it appears that after Israel sufficiently rejected the prophets who were calling them to national repentance, they were carried into captivity in Babylon and permanently lost the kingdom (there has not been a king, or kingdom, since), but they were later allowed to return to practice their religion in Jerusalem in preparation for the coming of their messiah. In a like manner, it appears that Israel’s rejection of their messiah permanently cost them their religious practice in the temple in Jerusalem when both the temple and city were destroyed in 70AD. The teaching that I understood Chuck to be giving is that now, neither the religion or kingdom will be restored until Christ returns and the descendants of Abraham recognize and accept him.
As for Chuck not accepting the modern state of Israel as being the continuation of old testament Israel, nor the future kingdom that is to be restored under Christ, as Chuck said in the interview, many Jewish scholars also believe that national Israel is not to be reestablished except by the messiah, the son of David, who is to rule as that kingdom’s king.
That leaves the question of whether the current state called Israel has been established by God for Christ to soon come and rule over, or whether it was established by men who were not willing to wait for their messiah to come? Under the pattern that I referenced earlier, of deliverance and restoration only coming to Israel subsequent to their repentance from the last act committed that got them under judgment, it would be an unprecedented event for God to reestablish the state of Israel in 1948 as an act of national restoration in the absence of Israel first repenting from the rejection of their messiah which is what lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora.
Chuck also brought up (in the 7 part series) the issue of the promises being to the physical descendants of Abraham and the question of whether those who established the current state of Israel, or who are now leading it, are really descendants of Abraham. I really believe it’s a moot point until Christ returns to be Israel’s king, but if we are to favor the modern state of Israel on the basis of their being the descendants of Abraham, then it begs the question as to whether the modern Jews in Israel are of Abraham, or to what degree they are.
After 2,000 years of being dispersed all over the face of the earth (and a few hundred years in Babylon before that), it’s unlikely any modern Jew is of 100% Abrahamic DNA. Some are Jewish by religion only and share none of Abraham’s bloodline. What percent of Abrahamic bloodline does a person need to have in order for us to be blessed for blessing them? Raise the bar high enough and no one in Israel qualifies – lower the bar low enough and there are people in every nation on earth that will qualify.
There is a higher percentage of the population that is Jewish in Israel than anywhere else I suppose, but there are a greater number of Jews in America than in Israel, so does that mean we should bless America in order to be blessed? Modern Israel is comprised of ethnic Jews, atheists, religious Jews who are not of the Abrahamic bloodline, religious Jews who are Talmudic, religious Jews who observe the Torah (though not fully as their is no temple, temple services, nor animal sacrifices), and there are Jews who have 90% Abrahamic bloodline, 80%, 50%, 20%, 10%, 1% and none. If the promise is to the physical descendants, and if we were to weigh the current population and demographics of modern Israel, then would that state qualify as 75% Israelite by bloodline? 50%? or maybe only 25%, or . . . ? What percent does it take to qualify for “I will bless them that bless thee”? Once again, raise that bar high enough and the state of Israel won’t qualify – lower it low enough and America and other nations will qualify.
I’m certainly not anti-Jew, nor anti-Israel, nor is Chuck in the sense that we are to love and desire salvation through Christ for everyone. And I strongly agree with your reference to the passage about having an appreciation for Abraham and his descendants for their being the people through whom God worked out the plan of salvation and the bringing of the messiah.
Perhaps the best thing that can come from this is that people will be challenged to question why they believe what they believe and be forced to do some studying, pondering and praying to find out. Too often we adopt a point of view simply because that’s what the other people at church all think, so we assume it must be the Christian point of view. I’m never done learning and discovering the truth. Studying this subject has been exhilarating. I’m finding a whole lot of things in the Bible making a lot more sense now as more pieces begin to fit into place.
Gary
Bob,
I see you’ve spent 9 hours of listening to Chuck Baldwin’s teaching. Would it be more productive to spend that time in God’s Word? It really comes down to this; it doesn’t matter what Chuck, or you, or I think. What matters is what God says.
My previous comments gave you many scripture references to look up, and it was by no means an exhaustive list. I hope you read all of them in context to make sure you understood what God was saying. The very fact that the promise to Israel that Chuck Baldwin contends with is reiterated several times in scripture makes his viewpoint unsustainable.
You said that Israel’s rebellion cost them their religious practice in the Temple in Jerusalem when both the Temple and the city were destroyed in 70AD. When Jesus gave up His spirit on the cross (yes, He gave it up willingly) the curtain in the Temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple was split from Top to Bottom by God Himself. It was a sign that men now had direct access to God through His Son. There was no longer a need for the Temple. It had served its purpose by pointing the way to the ultimate sacrifice, the Messiah. God now wanted to help His people come to the knowledge that the temple was no longer needed.
To make an issue of the present inhabitants of Israel being the true decedents is sadly misguided. If you read Christ’s lineage in Matthew, you will find it includes Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba, none of which are Jews. Does this mean that Jesus was not the legitimate Savior? Abraham’s seed had been watered down, according to the evidence, a long time ago making even God’s promises unattainable. I think not. From time immemorial, people have been welcomed into the family by the Jews and God Himself if they only came with faith and a pure heart to the true God.
Scriptures state that the Jews must be back in Israel and must ask the Lord to return before He comes back. I leave that to you to search out.
I leave you with this final thought. The tiny nation of Israel is about the size of New Jersey. It’s the only democratic nation in that area were Muslims can be Muslims, Christians can be Christians and Jews can be Jews, freely and without fear. Just try to take a Bible into Saudi Arabia and see what happens. The Jews are the only ethnic group that have remained an identifiable, national people and have not been absorbed or assimilated into other cultures after their dispersion. Why? Israel is unique. They are God’s chosen people and their very existence testifies to the reliability and accuracy of the Bible. God predicted that Israel would be scattered to the four corners of the globe if they did not obey His word. If they did not obey the Lord “then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other.” (Deuteronomy 28:64) Did you notice the “one end of the earth to the other.”? Not just in Babylon which happened during the Babylonian captivity, but what took place after 70AD. Yet, God predicted a time, during the last days, when He would bring back His people into their own land, never to be uprooted again. “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezekiel 36:24)
He also predicted that the nation of Israel would be reborn in a single day (Isaiah 66:8). This happened on May 14, 1948, when Israel was once again declared a sovereign state. God even predicted that they would speak their original language, Hebrew. (Zephaniah 3:9) Did you know there were no curse or dirty words in the original Hebrew language of the Scripture? It was indeed a pure language.
God honors His covenants, whether we do or not. Jeremiah 31:35-37 says God promises the perpetuity of Israel as a nation forever.
This is what the Lord says:
The one who gives the sun for light by day,
the fixed order of moon and stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea and makes the waves roar—
the LORD of Hosts is His name.
If this fixed order departs from My presence—
(this is) the LORD’s declaration–
then also Israel’s descendants will cease
to be a nation before Me forever.
This is what the LORD says:
If the heavens can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below explored,
I will reject all of Israel’s descendants
because of all they have done—
(this is) the LORD’s declaration.
If you listen to someone’s opinion or read books or commentaries, be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11) and always use the Word of God as your measuring rod to.. search the scriptures daily to find out whether these things are so.
Lori Bordessa
Thank you. Gary! God’s faithfulness to Israel, who over and over again showed unfaithfulness to God but He was faithful anyway, always encourages me and makes me love Him all the more!
This kind of replacement theology, anti-Israel teaching seems to limit God and paint Him as unfaithful and going back on His Word and promises. TBH, it makes me cringe and quite sad. Jesus Himself cried Jerusalem with a love so deep. God WILL keep His promises to Israel, even if the are still in a place of rejection of THE Messiah. When they recognize Him, it will be wonderful AND painful for them as they finally realize… But, God is faithful. And the gospel will one day be embraced by many. May it be soon. Come Lord Jesus.
Darlene R Banks
Amen
Dan
Hello Bob, I’ve just found this discussion between you and Gary and was wondering what your response was? Did you change your mind?
I don’t like the phrase ” if you read what God says” as if you or I or even Chuck are not reading the bible. There’s no need for sarcasm because we are all trying to interpret scripture and not one of us has a definitive answer without adding faith to the equation. I came here from another site, trying to find out who Chuck Baldwin was which led me to your discussion with Gary.
God Bless
Brock
I sit on the front row at Liberty Fellowship. And I agree with you Gary.I’ve been going back and forth sence he started that teaching and i’m to the point of being done with it and moving on to some else. there are very good cases to be made on both sides ,but for me its not worth spending anymore time on it, Im burnd out on the whole thing.I think the Bible is clear that they would be blind in part for a season and If we as Christians are constantly shaking our fist at them , that would just turn them away even moreIf Ihad to live in the middle east I would rathe rlive in Israel than some muslim counrty.Something esle that bothers me is he never acknowleges the threat that radical islam posses on the west its just beound me. I don,t get it.
Brock
I will say though as far as his stance on civil government in the light of scripture he is dead on .
Lori Bordessa
Great points.
Norma F. Lunn
Baldwin’s hatred of Israel is breathtaking.
He twists the Word of God to fit his agenda. His dark bitterness is defiling many and there will be a price to pay way beyond what he can imagine.
Rick Wiles is also regularly spewing hatred against Israel. These men assume their listeners do not read the Word and therefore, no one will question and dispute what they teach. WAKE UP, Christians !
Read the Word and believe it. The Lord has not abandoned Israel, nor will He ever ! Though we are not faithful, yet He remains faithful.
Elaine
agree – thanks Norma
Michael
let me remind you all that after the evil report by 80% of the spies at the brink of the promised land only two, yes just two entered it. Joshua and Caleb (even the meaning of those two names is significant) Note even Moses went not in. Also Jesus cursed the fig tree (Judah branch of Israel) and declared it fruitless forever! Also Jerusalem today was given to the Zionists by the United Kingdom (lost tribes – yet to be revealed) and is indeed the “Burdensome stone” to all people exactlly as prophecied (1914 CE 1335 Islam year) and the current people occupying Palestine drove not the British with (amongst other atrocities) a terrorist attack carried out on Monday, July 22, 1946, by the militant right-wing Zionist underground organization the Irgun
NLunn
Well said. Thanks for writing. If God’s promises to Abraham and his descendents are null and void
because of their sin,
what about His promises to me ? Does He keep His promises ? Yes. Every one.
Lori Bordessa
Exactly.
Lori Bordessa
Exactly NLunn.
Norma F Lunn
?
Norma F Lunn
?. Great job laying out the truth from God’s Word.
Donnie R Hawkes
The Church is Israel Now: The Transfer of Conditional Privilege
http://www.amazon.com/Church-Israel-Now-Conditional-Privilege/dp/1879998394/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377158791&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Church+is+Israel+Now
For the last century, Christians have been told that God has an unconditional love for persons racially descended from Abraham. Membership in Israel is said to be a matter of race, not faith. This book repudiates such a racialist viewpoint and abounds in Scripture references which show that the blessings of Israel were transferred to all those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
From a Review
A Lifesaver
By Heldenbaer1 on May 18, 2006
This slim volume is compiled of nothing but quotes from Scripture, to show that the very reason for the coming of Christ, and the writing of the New Testament, was clearly to show (as the subtitle of the book states) ‘the transfer of conditional privilege.’
In an era where neo-conservatives’ zionist-inspired agendas are dominating all rational discourse, (see Sizer’s new book, “Christian Zionism; Road-map to Armageddon?” (IVP, ISBN 10-0-8308-5368-5)) this little book should be a life-saver. IT is quite possibly not out of print, but rather is not carried by the bigger chain stores, and is thus ‘below their radar.’
If one has begun to question dispensationalism, the rationality of the current occupant of the Oval Office, and the continuing legitimacy of war for Israel in the Mid-east at the cost of thousands of American lives, this book, (along with “Neo-Conned,” vols 1 &2 from a purely secular perspective) are a much-needed corrective, to rectify a faulty view of God, the World, and who is truly the “Chosen People.”
The Beloved of God
A. Israel is the Beloved of God .
Exod.15:13 / Deu. 33:3 /Ezr. 3:11
B. Disobedient Israel is not Beloved of God.
Lev. 26:28,30 / Jer. 12:8 / Jer.16:5 / Hos. 9:15 / Amo. 9:7 /Mat. 3:7 / Philip. 3:2 / I Th 2:14-16 / Tit. 1:10
C. The Christians are Beloved of God.
Rom. 9:25 / Eph. 5:1 / Col. 3:12 / I Jo. 3:1
The Children of God
A. Israelites Are the Children of God
Exo. 4:22 /Deu. 14:1 / Isa. 1:2,4 /Isa. 63:8 / Jer. 31:9 / Hos. 11:1
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Childdren Of God .
Deu. 32.5 / John 8:39 , 42 , 44
C. The Christians Are The Children Of God
John 1:12 / John 11:52 / Rom. 8:14, 16 /2Cor. 6:18 /Gal. 3:26 / Gal. 4:5, 6, 7 /Philip. 2:15 / Jo. 3:1
The Field of God
A. Israel is the Field of God.
Jer. 12:10
B. The Christians Are the Field of God
1 Cor. 3:9
The Flock of God and of the Messiah
A. Israel is the Flock of God and of the Messiah
Psa. 78:52 / Psa. 80:1 / Isa. 40:11 /Jer. 23:1,2,3 / Jer. 31:10 /
Eze. 34:12 ,15 , 16 / Mic. 5:4 / Zec 10:3
B. The Christians are the Flock of God and of the Messiah
John 10:14 , 16 / Heb. 13:20 / 1 Pet. 2:25 /1 Pet. 5:2 ,3
Michael
Israel (the nation) was not in Palestine at the time Jesus walked the earth.it was rather a section of Judah and Benjamin who returned from the Babylonian captivity. Josephus the historian contemporary with Jesus said of Israel (the other ten tribes) that thay were “the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers.” so all Isaelites are not Jews even though some Jews are indeed Isaelites, It is silly to assert that all Amercans are Alaskans, or New Yorkers, as itto assert that all Israelites are Jews. Jesus declared “The kingdom of heaven shall be taken from you (Jews) and given to a nation (gr naos {not ecclsia – the church})” bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom” Ezekiel was told to to “remove the diadem take off the crown ….exalt him that is low (Israel) abase him that is high (Judah ?)” Jeremiah was told that he was “set over the nations and over the kingdoms – to root out, to pull down, destroy, throw down, and to build and plant” interesting that from the day that Jeconiah was deported to Babylon, no king of Israel descent has reigned in Jerusalem! However the Bible records that two of the kings daughters escaped with Jeremiah and Baruch to Egypt! Remember that God swore that as long as there was heaven, earth, sun, moon, stars, day, and night, As long as those seven remain, Israel shall never lack a king,, sitting on a thrown, ruling over My people Israel come on folk, Jesus has not yet attained what he was heir to, born to – the Throne of David!
Judah today, in Palestine, has no king, and no fruit. therefore they can not be Israel!?
Elaine
Chuck Baldwin seems to see everything through the lens of politics. He says he believes Israel’s and Zionists’ “ultimate goal is to achieve total domination of the Middle East.” It’s been over 70 years now, and I don’t see any country that has been taken over by Israel. I do see many being taken over by Arabs and Muslims and Islam.
In all the world, the Jews have a tiny place to call home and to try and live in peace. They are a diversity of faiths and politics – just like America. I think I’ll let the King of the Jews sort out the politics and the end of this age.